 |
| But that which YE have already hold fast till I come... |
"But
that which YE have already hold fast till I come... Behold I come quickly: hold
that fast which THOU hast, that no man take thy crown... For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they
heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away
their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables, FICTIONS.
That
which ye have already' reminds us of our precious possession... worked in by
the grace of God. But
it is a possession that the recipients have need to hold fast... lest they are
deprived of it.
It
DOES NOT refer to that possession which is reserved and kept by the power of
God... that possession is absolutely secure. It does not need our keeping it at
all!
'Hold
fast' reminds us that there are strong forces at work to deprive us of the
possessions that we have now.
Many
are forsaking the sound doctrine, the faith which was once delivered unto the
saints, for the FABLES... fictions.
MANY
choose to enter the wide gate and walk the broad way that lead destruction...
that messed up their life like Lot messed his, suffering shipwreck of their
faith. This is the popular and goat-friendly way of the world...
FEW
choose to enter the strait gate and travel the narrow way that leads to life...
that they enjoy the promised blessings of God for His obedient children. This
is the unpopular but sheep-friendly with those not of this world.
"He
that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world
shall keep it unto life eternal." This passage is a DISCIPLESHIP of God's
children:
He
that loves his life in this world enters the wide gate and travels the
broad way... thus losing his life in this world... he squanders wastes away his
redeemed life here on earth like his cousin Lot.
He
that hates his life in this world enters the strait gate and travels the narrow
way... thus keeping his life unto life eternal... he saves and enjoys his
redeemed life here on earth like his father Abraham.
'that
no man take thy crown...' That's a present possession, but it is in constant
danger of being TAKEN from a child of God.
What
shame and humiliation would be if one is inquired by the Lord, "Where is thy crown wherewith I have crowned thee with? Thou hast been crowned a child
of God... why art thou not exercising that right and authority to live as a
child of God!'
I
fear the crowns of many children of God have been taken away from them... by
the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness!
----------
(One David has deleted all his comments.)
Sing
F Lau
All
true, but part of the truth.
These
words were addressed to the disciples... and a passage on discipleship.
13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and
few there be that find it.
Many,
Christ said, among God's children choose to walk the easy way that leads to
timely destruction... there are more Lots than Abrahams. You are one of the few
Abraham!
Ashley
Juliot
Hey
Sing, I'm under the impression that Matthew 7 is referring to the narrow way of
trusting Christ. But, I'm consider your view.
A
question I have is on Luke 13. It seems that Christ is saying the same thing
that He said in Matthew 7 only the context concludes that those don't enter the
narrow way are on a path to hell. Is Luke 13 a different subject than what is
being said in Matthew 7?
Luke
13:23-28
23
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek
to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is
risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to
knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and
say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We
have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me,
all[ ye] workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the
kingdom of God, and you[ yourselves] thrust out.
Also,
it appears that Matthew 7 (though spoken to disciples) is referring to a broad
path that leads to hell, for he goes on the same context and says,
Matthew
7:19-23
19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the
fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that
saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that
day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Is
verse 19-23 a change in subject or is it not referring to a path that leads to
hell?
What
is your understanding of verses of Matthew 7:19-23 and Luke 13:23-28?
Grace
be with you, dear brother
Sing
F Lau
Ho
Abraham, I believe verses 19-23 is a change of subject, warning the disciples
about false teachers. There is a sharp distinction between 'ye' the disciples,
and them the false teachers who are workers of iniquities.
Also, Mt 7:13-14 can't possibly be speaking of eternal salvation. If it is, then the
passage is made to teach that eternal salvation is conditioned upon men's going
through the narrow gate and walking the narrow path.
Nor
is the distinction between natural men and the children of God. If it is, then
we make the passage to teach that ALL of God's children do go through the strait
gate and walk the narrow path... in which case the warning is redundant.
The
warning obviously implies the reality that the wide gate and broad way are a
very real danger to God's children, and many take that easy and
least-resistance road!
That's
my thoughts.
Sing
F Lau
The
context of the Luke 13:23-28 passage is entirely different. It was a reply to a
specific question, "are there few that be saved?"
And
Jesus' answer clearly implies that the salvation under consideration is not
eternal salvation, but that salvation which is conditioned upon striving to
enter the narrow gate.
I
believe it has a reference to the destruction in 70AD. Of the children of God
among the Jews in the first century, many were unbelieving about the coming of
the kingdom of heaven, and the impending abolition of the earthly theocratic
kingdom of Israel they were so familiar with.
There
was this UNIQUE problem that Jesus Christ, and later on His apostle had to deal
with all the time: God's children among the Jews who were SO STUCK in the old
covenant setting, who were unbelieving and refusing to let go of the old order
of things, and move on and enter the new order of thing Christ has established.
Very
few children of God among the Jews were saved from the 70AD destruction that
came upon Jerusalem. Many did not take heed - go through the strait gate and
save themselves from the destruction. The door was shut against them when the
Roman armies descended upon Jerusalem in 70AD. And there was indeed loud
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Sing F Lau
Ho
David, perhaps you may like to substantiate your statement, "Everywhere
else when Jesus said weeping and gnashing he refers to hell. "
Don't
rule out the real possibility that it refers to the horrendous suffering the
unbelieving children of God went through during the destruction in 70AD. That
was, by the testimony of Christ Himself, the worst hell on earth the Jew went
through, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Here
are 5 occasions 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' occur.
Mt
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him
away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of
teeth.
Mt
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the
hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lu
13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham,
and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you
yourselves thrust out.
In
every occasion, it was addressed specifically to the Jews.
At
the very least, in Mt 25:14-30, it is pretty plain that it is an unfaithful
SERVANTS of the Lord being spoken off. It is a parable of the kingdom of
heaven!
The
Mt 24 passage is OBVIOUSLY speaking of the 70AD context.
Maybe you want to demonstrate the truthfulness of your claim in other passages!
Sing F Lau
"There
is a distinction between a conditional justification which I would totally
disagree with, and a monergistic regeneration as a condition for
"seeing" the kingdom of God."
=========
But
there is a conditional justification, and there is an unconditional
justification; the former is conditioned on believing, and the latter freely by
the grace of God.
God
justifying a condemned sinner freely by his grace, and faith justifying a
believer that he is a child of God are two very different and distinct
justifications.
Of
course, regeneration is monergistic... the dead that needed to be quickened
CAN'T possibly meet any condition, if there was any at all. The absolute
necessity of the PRIOR new birth from heaven, directly and immediately by the
free and sovereign work of the Spirit, for spiritual sight, is asserted by
Christ. Spiritual sight is an activity of eternal life.
Sing F Lau
"I
admire your zeal to avoid conditionalism, "
=======
I
DON'T avoid conditionalism.
That
which is conditional must be honestly acknowledged as conditional.
That
which is by free grace must be faithfully acknowledged as unconditional.
I
do want to rightly divide the word of truth, that I need not be ashamed of
being a teacher of falsehood!
Ashley
Juliot
Hey
Sing, Can
you address these passages in light of your view. I understand that you are
saying regenerated children of God can be utterly fruitless and that some don't
at all practice righteousness. Are you referring to unregenerate sheep or
regenerate sheep of God?
Please
address these passages in light of your view.
Psalm
9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Matthew
5:29-30
29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast[ it] from thee: for it
is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not[ that]
thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee,
cut it off, and cast[ it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of
thy members should perish, and not[ that] thy whole body should be cast into
hell.
Matthew
13:38-43
38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the
tares are the children of the wicked[ one]; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the
devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in
the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they
shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing
and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in
the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew
25:41-42
41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an
hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew
25:45-46
45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did[
it] not to one of the least of these, ye did[ it] not to me. 46 And these shall
go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark
9:42-50
42
And whosoever shall offend one of[ these] little ones that believe in me, it is
better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast
into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee
to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire
that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is
not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee
to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the
fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better
for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to
be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not
quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall
be salted with salt. 50 Salt[ is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness,
wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with
another.
1
Corinthians 6:9-11
9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not
deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are
justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1
John 3:10
10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his
brother.
Revelation
14:9-12
9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship
the beast and his image, and receive[ his] mark in his forehead, or in his
hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured
out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented
with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence
of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and
whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints:
here[ are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation
21:7-8
7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he
shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall
have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the
second death.
Revelation
22:14-15
14
Blessed[ are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the
tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without[
are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Also,
I still have some questions on Luke 13
Luke
13:28-29
28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and
Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you[
yourselves] thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and[ from] the
west, and from the north, and[ from] the south, and shall sit down in the
kingdom of God.
Did
any (before they died) see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the
kingdom of God while they were being destroyed and thrust out of Jerusalem? And
who came from the 4 corners of the earth to sit down in the kingdom of God?
What is the kingdom of God in this passage?
Blessings
Sing F Lau
David,
ONLY those who are ALREADY in the kingdom of God can be thrust out of the same,
right? So, go figure out your point that "Jesus clearly is teaching that
some will be thrust out of the kingdom of God into everlasting
destruction."
Sing F Lau
David,
for the record, I do believe in the literal hell for the goats, every one of
them, and a simple passage will suffice. "And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Sing F Lau
David@
"Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,
and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand
offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee
that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be
cast into hell."
=====
David,
may I ask you a bit before I comment on this passage?
- Who
do you think these words are addressed to?
- Only
two choices: either to the unregenerated or to the regenerated.
If
addressed to the unregenerated, then are they able to do those things? Is it
true that the unregenerated are able to do those things and saved themselves
from ETERNAL hell, and secure themselves eternal SALVATION?
Is
it possible that a part of man perished and go to the literal eternal lake of fire, and
the rest of him be saved by his action and enter literal heaven?
If
addressed to the regenerated, then how will their radical actions against sins
in their lives save them from hell? And what is the hell are they saving
themselves from? Hell during the intermediate state, or the eternal lake of fire?
Who
are able to act such radically against sins in their lives? And what will
happen if they fail to do such radical things against sins in their lives?
Answer
these questions, then I will comment on these passage, if the comments are
still needed then.
Keep
speaking. We are driving ourselves ever closer to the Scriptures.
Sing F Lau
Brother
Abraham.... you gave me a barrel full of passages. Thanks for your generosity!
Perhaps
you may like to start of by stating what each of those passages teach. Then we
will chew through and digest them one by one.
You
wrote: "I understand that you are saying regenerate children of God can be
utterly fruitless and that some don't at all practice righteousness. Are you
referring to unregenerate sheep or regenerate sheep of God?"
God's
children manifest a wide range of fruitfulness, and there are God's children
who manifest fruitlessness. Christ himself said so... see the parable of the sower
- a parable on discipleship, warning and exhorting God's children to attend to
the ministry of the word with all care and diligence, otherwise, fruitlessness
will overtake them. Those who do bear fruit, their fruitfulness varies greatly.
Salvation that involves the activities of men is INEVITABLY timely salvation, a
salvation that God's children are exhorted to work out for themselves with fear
and trembling. Failure to do that will land themselves in HELL during the intermediate state.
Ashley
Juliot
What
about unquenchable fire, hell fire, the furnace of fire, and the worm that dies
not? Certainly, these torments are not on earth. A careful reading of the texts
which use these phrases can not lead to interpreting this hell as being on
earth.
There
are differing degrees of fruit in God's regenerate sheep. If we read the
parable of the sower in the gospels, there is only 1 of the 4 that brings forth
fruit.
Luke
8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having
heard the word, keep[ it], and bring forth fruit with patience.
The
others were false conversions. The 1st was blinded by Satan, the 2nd had no
root in themselves, and the 3rd brought forth no fruit to perfection and has no
fruit unto holiness... and clearly knows nothing of living by the faithfulness
of Christ. It is God who works in His sheep both to will and to do of His good
pleasure, and he is not powerless to effectually cause them to work out their
own salvation with fear and trembling for He puts His fear in our hearts so
that we will not depart from Him. God is the author and finisher of our
faith... and He has left none of His regenerate sheep in a state of following
the world. If this were true, then many of His regenerate sheep don't hear His
voice and they don't follow Him. This is not what our Lord has taught.
John
10:28-30
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall
any[ man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave[ them] me, is
greater than all; and no[ man] is able to pluck[ them] out of my Father's hand.
30 I and[ my] Father are one.
In
light of this, it is a great misrepresentation of the Lord's faithfulness to
teach that Christ might say to some of His sheep, "But he shall say, I
tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all[ ye] workers of
iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and
you[ yourselves] thrust out." -Lk 13:27-28
...and
to consistent you must also interpret Matthew 24 the same. Thus you must also
teach that regenerate sheep are in danger of being cut asunder and being
appointed a portion with the hypocrites. It is a very great error to represent
God's children as hypocrites when Christ has cleansed them and washed them in
His own precious blood. He that is born of God keeps himself in the love of
God, for they are kept by the power of God's love.
Sing
F Lau
Abraham
@ "John 10:28-30
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall
any[ man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave[ them] me, is
greater than all; and no[ man] is able to pluck [ them] out of my Father's
hand. 30 I and[ my] Father are one. "
========
Where
in this passage does it say God's children will persevere in a life of faith
and holiness?
All
the text declares is concerning ETERNAL salvation - eternal life, once
bestowed, will forever be an assured possession, guaranteed by divine power.
Please
find a suitable passage to prove your idea.
Sing
F Lau
Abraham@"
It is a very great error to represent God's children as hypocrites when Christ
has cleansed them and washed them in His own precious blood. He that is born of
God keeps himself in the love of God, for they are kept by the power of God's
love."
==========
God's
children are constantly warned against behaving like hypocrites... showing
that they are not exempted from such hideous sins! The warnings presuppose that
they are quite capable of such heinous sins.
Mt
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they
love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that
they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt
6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance:
for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I
say unto you, They have their reward.
Ro
12:9 Let love be without dissimulation.
Jas
3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,
and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality,
and without hypocrisy.
Even
the hearts of God's children are deceitful above all things!
Sing
F Lau
Abraham@
"What about unquenchable fire, hell fire, the furnace of fire, and the
worm that dies not? Certainly these torments are not on earth."
===========
What
have the passages on weeping and gnashing of teeth to do with the passages
where 'unquenchable fire'? Check them out and see how related are they.
As
for and unquenchable hell fire, what do you think about this passage. What is
the hell fire here? Mt 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out,
and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye,
rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
Is
the 'life' and 'hell fire' about eternal life and eternal hell? If it is, then
you are making this passage to teach that eternal life is entered through a man
effort of fighting against sins!
Who
can exercise the radical effort to fight against sin?
And
what does that radical effort accomplished - to be delivered from hell???
Try
to catch the SENSE of those words... not just its SOUND! Look at the context...
what is the context!
Sing
F Lau
"43 And
if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life
maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall
be quenched:
44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
========
You
think this passage is speaking of eternal salvation? That a man's radical
battling against sins enables to enter eternal life, and escape eternal hell?
Is that what you want to make Jesus to teach?
Anything
that involves man's activities and effort CANNOT POSSIBLY be related to ETERNAL
salvation.
Therefore
the 'life' and 'fire' spoken of cannot be eternal hell fire... but something
related to this life... expressed in its STARKEST form!
Ashley
Juliot
Hey
Sing, if you read the context of John 10, Jesus says that His sheep hear His
voice and follow Him.
Ashley
Juliot
God's
children are capable of hypocrisy and certainly may fall into numerous sins.
I'm not denying this. I am denying that they are Hypocrites by nature in their
new heart. God does not give his sheep a new heart that is deceitful above all
things. The pure in heart shall see God. The heart is purified through faith.
The blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. Sin comes from the flesh and not the
new nature.
Ashley
Juliot
"Follow
peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the
Lord." (Hebrews 12:14) Holiness is necessary for "seeing" or
fellowship with the Lord... not justification. God desires to fellowship with
His redeemed. Apart from Spirit wrought purity, we cannot enjoy God.
Romans
6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your
fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin[ is]
death; but the gift of God[ is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
None
of God's regenerate sheep are utterly void of holiness. Notice that holiness
and everlasting life are in the same verse in Romans 6. The life here is
fellowship, for it refers to becoming servants to God. This is eternal life
experienced. The passage is not saying that we need personal holiness to be
justified before God, and neither am I.
I
do not believe that any of these passages below are teaching justification
before God by our holiness.
No
man can fellowship with God without a spiritual heart. God does not merely
desire to justify His elect, but He desires to convert them unto spiritual life
that they may fellowship with Him. Each of these passages is a warning that no
one shall fellowship or be with God without a cleansed Heart... and therefore,
they shall go to a real eternal hell were every soul remains at enmity against
God in their carnal mind. I will present 3 passages which are contrary to the
teaching that a regenerate child may be no different than the wicked in the
enslavement to the love of sin. Matthew 25, 1 John 3, and Revelation 21 need to
be addressed.
Matthew
25:33
And he shall set the SHEEP on his right hand, but the GOATS on the left. 34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 FOR I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me
drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Notice
that the sheep may come into the kingdom "FOR..."
Matthew
25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 FOR I was an
hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew
25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did[
it] not to one of the least of these, ye did[ it] not to me. 46 And these shall
go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL.
I
believe this is referring to a real eternal punishment in hell and not a hell
on earth. They are cast there "For" being bitter strangers to Christ.
Notice in the same context, the righteous are not like the goats. God's sheep
hear His voice and follow Him. Regenerate sheep are not on the broadway of
being bitter strangers to Christ.
1
John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his
brother.
The
context is referring to those who are born of God. See verse 9. If you don't
practice righteousness, you are not born of God. We should not call an
individual a child of God if they don't practice righteousness.
Revelation
21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he
shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall
have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the
second death.
I
believe this is referring to a real eternal hell. Those who remain enslaved to
the love of these sins are on a path to the lake of fire.
Sing
F Lau
Hi
Abe, there no need to deny that God's children are hypocrites... because I
didn't say they are hypocrites by nature in their new heart.
Everything
you stated above is true. Sin comes from flesh... and the flesh remains until
our last breath...
The
Lord Himself said, "And my people are bent to backsliding from me..."
The
Lord's servant warned, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith
Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of
bondage."
There
is this popular tenet of Calvinism, "True children of God will persevere
in a life of faith and holiness. Therefore those who don't CANNOT possibly be
true children of God." Both the premise and the conclusion are horrible
heresies... it does not conform to the plain teaching of Scriptures. Just look
at the Scriptures... and you will see that that tenet is just a fable of the
self-conceited.
I
am all for practical godliness. I don't condone ungodliness among God's
children... but it is not right to overstate the matter and turn it into a
heresy!
Have
a good day!
Ashley
Juliot
I
don't agree with the Calvinistic position because their is a wrong emphasis on
the law as the believers only rule of life, when the emphasis should be on the
hope of the gospel as the believer's rule of life. I believe it is better to
say that God's sheep persevere in the purifying hope of Christ. 1 Jn 3:3.
God's
regenerate sheep may fall into great sins, but they never utterly depart from
the hope of Christ and this hope in Christ is the strength that works purity by
the Spirit in God's sheep.
Blessings
Ashley
Juliot
I
am primarily wanting to focus on Matthew 25 if you can address that passage.
Sing
F Lau
Abe,
you seem to have the idea that since God gave His elect a new heart a and new
nature, therefore they will live a life of faith and holiness. I wish this idea
was true... but when I read the Scriptures, I have to conclude that it is just a
fable of the self-conceited. How wonderful if that notion was true indeed.
Sing
F Lau
Which
part of Mt 25? Verse 1-30, or 31-46?
The
former has two parables dealing with the facts about DISCIPLESHIP in the
kingdom of heaven. The two parables DO NOT TEACH how to get into the kingdom of
heaven.
"Watch
therefore, for ye..." (v13) - you think Jesus is addressing those dead in
trespasses and sins? Who are called to be watchful?... See More
The
second parable deals with the Lord's SERVANTS... and His call unto faithfulness
in his kingdom. And if you want to believe that his unfaithful servants shall
be cast into ETERNAL hell, I will leave you to believe it."
Remember
that the parables are CHIEFLY addressed to God's children among the Jews in the
reformation period (30-70AD). The destruction in 70AD that befell upon
unbelieving children of God among the Jews was quite hellish with the
unquenchable fire that devoured them!
The
latter (31-46) is separate and distinct from the parables, describing the great
judgment, describing the works and destinies of sheep and goats.
Ashley
Juliot
Matthew
25:31-46. Notice the words "FOR..." throughout this parable.
Does
not Jeremiah 32 teach that God will put his fear in our hearts so that we will
not depart from Him. Compare this with Hebrews 8.
In addition,
1 John 3:1-10 clearly defines every regenerate child as doing righteousness.
Read through it and focus on verse 6, 9, and 10. What is your understanding of
these verses?
Sing
F Lau
We
are just going round and round. Thanks for the exchanges.
You
are the first person I know that see Mt 25:31ff as a parable! There may be
others... but I am not aware.
Does
doing righteousness equate to a life of persevering in faith and holiness?
Just
what are you opposing or disagreeing with what I have said? We may be speaking
past each other!
Ashley
Juliot
I'm
sorry, I don't view it as a parable. I believe it is expounding on the reality
of the preceding 2 parables. I agree with Gill here, "What is before
signified in the two preceding parables, is here clearly and distinctly
represented without a parable."
Ashley
Juliot
1
John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath
eternal life abiding in him.
1
John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of
God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
These
2 verses are contrary to the teaching that a regenerated child of God may persevere
in utter fruitlessness.
Sing
F Lau
Hey
Abe, you are fighting a straw man - i.e. 'a child of God persevere in utter
fruitlessness.' If you enjoy doing that, that's fine with me.
If
you imagine I saying anything like that, you are quite. mistaken!
Ashley
Juliot
I
have no problem if you are stating that a regenerate child of God may fall into
many sins and fall from his steadfastness. But, I do have a problem with your
view if you are saying that a regenerate child of God can live in a continual
state of being a bitter stranger to Christ (as the goats in Mt 25)... being
enslaved to his carnality (as the servants of sin in Romans 6)... being
continually without a heart of hope in Christ (as when we were dead in
trespasses in Eph 2)... being continually without any war between the flesh and
Spirit (as the murderer in 1 John 3 and those without the spirit in Rom 😎... and in a state where Christ shall say, "I know you
not." (as in Luk 13 and Mat 25).
Matthew
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick,
and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Romans
6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Ephesians
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,( by
grace ye are saved;)
1
John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loveth not[ his] brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his
brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding
in him.
Romans
8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God
dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Luke
13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me,
all[ ye] workers of iniquity.
Matthew
25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But
he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
I
understand what you are saying Sing... You believe that Jesus will say to some
of His regenerate Sheep, "I know you not."
Sing,
you are teaching a doctrine that is against the very words of Christ.
John
10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep
follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but
will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John
10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my[ sheep], and am known of mine.
John
10
26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My
sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Sing
F Lau
Abraham@
"I have no problem if you are stating that a regenerate child of God may
fall into many sins and fall from his steadfastness. But, I do have a problem
with your view if you are saying that a regenerate child of God can live in a
continual state of being a bitter stranger to Christ (as the goats in Mt 25)...
being enslaved to his carnality (as the servants of sin in Romans 6)... being
continually without a heart of hope in Christ (as when we were dead in
trespasses in Eph 2)... being continually without any war between the flesh and
Spirit (as the murderer in 1 John 3 and those without the spirit in Rom 😎... and in a state where Christ shall say, "I know you
not." (as in Luk 13 and Mat 25).
============
So,
Abe, which did I say? Please tell me. If you aren't even sure which I have
said, why waste all your time disputing me? You have just created straw men and
enjoyed burning them yourselves. In any case, the ashes from those straw men are good for the garden!
Sing
F Lau
Abraham@
"You stated that we may "waste away our redeemed life" here on
earth. "=======
"He
that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world
shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25.
"Enter
ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that
leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait
is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be
that find it."
These
are addressed to believers, God.s children.
There
are Lots, and there are Abrahams... the Calvinists would write off, that such
as him are no children of God to begin with. But the Scriptures prove conclusively that such are liars.
Sing
F Lau
Abe,
you DID construct STRAW MAN and made great effort at burning it - stating this:
"a child of God persevere in utter fruitlessness." Not even Lot was
in such state as you imagined! Not even those that make shipwreck of the faith
come near to that straw man you have set up! Are they not classic example of
those who chose the broadway that leads to timely hell and destruction?
I
have no problem with all those passages in 1John 3 and 5. It is you who
imagined that those passages contradicted the biblical facts I set before you.
There is no reconciling to do.
You
need to reconcile that passages I raised! The problem arises in your mind when
you think that it has to be a 'EITHER OR' situation. Don't just look at those
passages as though those are the only things the Scriptures speak, and draw
unwarranted conclusion, i.e. "therefore all true children of God persevere
in a life of faith and holiness, and anyone who does not was never a child of
God to begin with!' With such conclusion, even Solomon are consigned to hell by
those reformed calvinists!
It
is the Lord Himself who said, "My people are bent on backsliding."
It
is easy and presumptuous and arrogant, and INJURIOUS TOO, to write them off as
not children of God... just because they are measure up to the expectation.
EVEN THOUGH the Scriptures plainly warned that many of God's children, if they
don't take heed and be vigilant, will backslide into such spiritual state.
Thank
you for your time too.
