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| This represents the popular idea of divine sovereignty and human responsibility! |
Here is an interesting exchange...
Cheddar
If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?
If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?
(a reply to this question is found right at the end..sing)
Cray
All men are commanded to repent and
obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their
own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and
behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility
of man.
Sing
F Lau
All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
This is complete nonsense - just being honest and plain, you can take it as rudeness.
I'll explain to you why it is complete nonsense.
Your idea necessarily implies that God requires EVEN those whom He expressly did not elect, nor gave to Christ to redeem, and whom Christ expressly did not die for nor redeem, to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.
Do you really believe in such a God?
Who has a duty to believe that Jesus Christ is his Saviour?
Common sense tells me that it is those whom Jesus Christ is indeeed their Saviour. Such alone have OBLIGATION to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ.
God is sovereign in redemption, in redeeming HIS people; and it is the responsibility of His REDEEMED people to believe the truth of their redemption, ALREADY FREELY applied to them.
God DOES NOT require any man to believe a lie. God DOES NOT require or command the NON-ELECT to believe Jesus Christ is their Saviour. Jesus Christ is NOT their Saviour.
A man's duty and obligation is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.
Only those who are party to the covenant of redemption are under the covenant obligation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.
All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
This is complete nonsense - just being honest and plain, you can take it as rudeness.
I'll explain to you why it is complete nonsense.
Your idea necessarily implies that God requires EVEN those whom He expressly did not elect, nor gave to Christ to redeem, and whom Christ expressly did not die for nor redeem, to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.
Do you really believe in such a God?
Who has a duty to believe that Jesus Christ is his Saviour?
Common sense tells me that it is those whom Jesus Christ is indeeed their Saviour. Such alone have OBLIGATION to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ.
God is sovereign in redemption, in redeeming HIS people; and it is the responsibility of His REDEEMED people to believe the truth of their redemption, ALREADY FREELY applied to them.
God DOES NOT require any man to believe a lie. God DOES NOT require or command the NON-ELECT to believe Jesus Christ is their Saviour. Jesus Christ is NOT their Saviour.
A man's duty and obligation is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.
Only those who are party to the covenant of redemption are under the covenant obligation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.
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| This represents the biblical teaching on divine sovereignty and human responsibility! |
Cray
I love your style Sing and have no
problem with it. The truth is too important to allow inaccuracies to pass by
undetected. I will need to reconsider my wording above and reflect upon how
that fits within my theological framework.
Sing
F Lau
The fact that God is Sovereign does
not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
The sovereignty of God in the context of redemption must be matched by the responsibility of man in the same context - i.e. the responsibility of man must be understood in the context of redemption - those in the covenant of redemption are under obligation to believe the truth of their redemption.
Anything else is just nonsensical.
Tell me that I'm wrong. I would be very happy to hear your reason.
===================
The sovereignty of God in the context of redemption must be matched by the responsibility of man in the same context - i.e. the responsibility of man must be understood in the context of redemption - those in the covenant of redemption are under obligation to believe the truth of their redemption.
Anything else is just nonsensical.
Tell me that I'm wrong. I would be very happy to hear your reason.
Cray
I like that last statement but have
my "thinking cap" on at the moment trying to figure out how that squares
with what you have said above.
Sing
F Lau
Point out what are squares and what
are circles in what I have stated.
Cray
OK, I'll say this...God commands all men to
repent and live in accordance with his law. You could agree with that brother?
Cray
The very fact Sing you wrote above:
" The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of
man. "...I would assume you agree with my statement.
Cray
OK, if that is correct it seems to
me that God would delight that all men honour his law and live in accordance
with his holy standards. Do you agree?
Sing F Lau
God commands all men to repent and
live in accordance with his law.
========
Please note, that this is starkly distinct from
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel"
Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation, under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures.
========
Please note, that this is starkly distinct from
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel"
Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation, under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures.
Sing F Lau
Cray, you are the one who wrote
this:
"The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."
I just quoted what you are saying!
"The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."
I just quoted what you are saying!
Cray
Yes and God would delight that all
men honour his law
Yes, I see what you are saying
now...all that is true but because Christ only died for the eternal salvation
of the elect then it follows that the non-elect are not obliged to believe that
Christ died for them (which is not true!).
As you say above, " Yes, ALL
men are under the covenant of creation, under the obligations of the terms of
the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to
obey His commands as God's creatures. " Amen!
Sing F Lau
Yes, the Creator deserves to be
honoured by His creatures.
The Redeemer deserved to be honoured by His redeemed.
Different spheres altogether!
When Calvinists mouth this shibboleth of "divine sovereignty and human responsibility", they are speaking of the responsibility of ALL NATURAL MAN.
That's just a lie, and makes God a liar!
The Redeemer deserved to be honoured by His redeemed.
Different spheres altogether!
When Calvinists mouth this shibboleth of "divine sovereignty and human responsibility", they are speaking of the responsibility of ALL NATURAL MAN.
That's just a lie, and makes God a liar!
Cray
That's what I meant to say in
my opening remarks but it got messed up a bit!
Sing F Lau
That's because you are still using
the language of the typical and popular Calvinism!
Cray
Yes, that's excellent Sing...thank
you.
Sing F Lau
it is... a typical Calvinistic
shibboleth...
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."
Cray
Yeah, my mind is still embedded with some of
this thinking. Sing do you agree with Floyd's comments above...you are free to
point out the differences...this is where we learn.
Cray
Floyd writes:" If I can just put a
clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, God's word was written to
the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and read it. It
is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all men to repent
and God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc. ..NOT if the
"all men" means all people ever born. There is no way that God
desires a man to repent that is under His wrath " How is this correct and
in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?
Sing F Lau
I remember a certain Floyd who
befriended me, but he has since "blocked" me I think. I don't see his
comments. He abhors my plain speaking.
Cray
I didn't know that. I don't object
to your plain speaking. I'm learning...so continue brother in your plain
speaking, please. I'm learning.
Cray
So waiting for your comments Sing.
Sing F Lau
Comments to what?
I don't make comments when I don't
have the luxury of having the author rebutting me!
Cray
Floyd writes:" If I can just
put a clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, God's word was
written to the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and
read it. It is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all
men to repent and God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc.
..NOT if the "all men" means all people ever born. There is no way
that God desires a man to repent that is unde\r His wrath " How is this
correct and in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?
Cray
Is that accurate or not?
In the interests of truth is that correct
biblically?
Sing F Lau
1. God's word was delivered to His
redeemed people. The Church is made up of a fraction of the redeemed, gathered
out of the world into the visible assemblies of saints.
2. God does not desire all men to repent. He commands all men, all ever born, to repent of their sins. No man has the right to remain in their sins. Each man is under divine obligation as God's creatures to live according to His law. The creatures are under divine obligation to the Creator to live according to His law. Failing to do so is the reason and basis for their JUST condemnation.
3. God commands His redeemed to believe in the truth of their FREE redemption in Jesus Christ and to walk uprightly according to the will of their Father.
4. With respect to eternal salvation, God had sovereignly and freely purposed, accomplished, and applied that salvation to each elect, at His appointed and accepted time when they were still dead in trespasses and sins.
In their temporal salvation, He is not willing that any of them should perish, but do His will and be saved.
Does this help?
2. God does not desire all men to repent. He commands all men, all ever born, to repent of their sins. No man has the right to remain in their sins. Each man is under divine obligation as God's creatures to live according to His law. The creatures are under divine obligation to the Creator to live according to His law. Failing to do so is the reason and basis for their JUST condemnation.
3. God commands His redeemed to believe in the truth of their FREE redemption in Jesus Christ and to walk uprightly according to the will of their Father.
4. With respect to eternal salvation, God had sovereignly and freely purposed, accomplished, and applied that salvation to each elect, at His appointed and accepted time when they were still dead in trespasses and sins.
In their temporal salvation, He is not willing that any of them should perish, but do His will and be saved.
Does this help?
Cray
Yes, that was excellent thank you.
I'm very happy with the explanation given.
Sing
F Lau
If I am not a sheep, what needs to
happen for me to become one?
========
A man has no basis to say "if I am not a sheep." It is not his business to know whether he is a sheep. His business is to believe that he is a sinner under the just condemnation of God, and Jesus Christ is God's provision for SUCH AS him.
It is better to ask, "How may I know that I am a sheep?"
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives evidence that one is a sheep!
It is a revealed truth that God has elected a vast multitudes out of the fallen race of Adam, and He has provided Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.
It is not revealed to any one that he is not a sheep.
It is revealed that God provided an all-sufficient Saviour to Saviour sinners...
1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
========
A man has no basis to say "if I am not a sheep." It is not his business to know whether he is a sheep. His business is to believe that he is a sinner under the just condemnation of God, and Jesus Christ is God's provision for SUCH AS him.
It is better to ask, "How may I know that I am a sheep?"
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives evidence that one is a sheep!
It is a revealed truth that God has elected a vast multitudes out of the fallen race of Adam, and He has provided Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.
It is not revealed to any one that he is not a sheep.
It is revealed that God provided an all-sufficient Saviour to Saviour sinners...
1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
... more to come...
Take a look at this article dealing with divine sovereignty and human responsibility rightly divided.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-do-we-pray-for-salvation.html.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-do-we-pray-for-salvation.html.
