A host of heresies... embraced by a group of sincere people
- There is no regeneration in the OT, i.e before the resurrection of Christ
- Jesus was personally sinful...
- Jesus was also dead in trespasses and sins
- Jesus needed to be regenerated ALSO like you do
- Regeneration is the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit
- There is salvation without regeneration
- Before Christ's death, there is crediting of righteousness... i.e. there is justification but no regeneration for OT saints...
- But since Jesus' death, there is no need of crediting righteousness... i.e. no justification in the NT.
- And on and on.
If you think such are impossible, read on and discover for yourself!
The discussion here continues from
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/02/some-fables-indeed-on-regeneration-and.html
Sing F Lau [Pastor teacher at Sungai Dua Church, Penang]
Heb 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
Ed's question: "what was the promise that the OT saints died in faith waiting for?"
Ed's assertion: that promise was their regeneration in Jesus Christ.
He believes there was no regeneration in the OT, but those OT saints died in faith, not having received the promise of regeneration.
Join in... but stick to the subject. You too, Ed.
February 2 at 10:50am
Ed Elliott [President at
Word of Life World Outreach ]
Sing, maybe you should reread what I have written. I have covered this a number of times already with you. Jesus was the first born from the dead. Paul says that the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead also makes us alive. If OT saints were born again b/4 Jesus was raised from the dead than Jesus wasn't the first.
Jesus tells us that Abraham was in Paradise the place he told the thief He would take him. Peter tells us that Jesus preached to those spirits being held. Paradise is where OT saints were being held until the resurrection. When the promise of the spirit was available to them. Again I suggest you read Gal 3 where Paul talks about what Abraham believed and saw afar off in relation to his seed. You will notice Paul called it the promise of the spirit. This means by faith man is made righteous, saved, has God living in them etc. The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not found in OT saints. The prophet, priest and king were anointed "spirit upon" them for work and service of God. This wasn't regeneration, like Sampson the anointing to do feats. Balams donkey was anointed to talk does this mean it was regenerated? No it doesn't.
OT saints were led by signs, burning bush, clouds, fire etc. NT believers are led by Gods spirit and we walk by faith not by sight aka our senses.
NT saints are warned to not live under the law b/c it will nullify Gods grace but many OT saints did live under the law. I could list many more reasons but as I said, they are already listed in the link I provided.
[A fatal flaw: Jesus' resurrection from the dead is equated as the regeneration... therefore because jesus is the first born, there can be no one regenerated before him! What confusion!]
Mattong
From what I can read from your past post, you seem to use the OT to try to disprove the obvious written in NT like:
--------------------------------------
Personally I believe NT scripture has more information shown than OT.
--------------------------------------
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, *as Isaac was*, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was *born after the Spirit*, even so it is now.
--------------------
1) as Isaac was : OT saint.
2) born after the Spirit : NT written text to cast clear light on Isaac.
---------------------
If you hold that NT is greater revelation than OT, than the other posting you have written is self-opposing logic that state all OT saints are not born again, because Gal 4:28-29 shows otherwise. BTW, balaam donkey is not a saint, just a beast.
Phillip JB
Ed stuck to the subject but someone is following another doctrine.
[Ed sure has zealous followers, urging him to be stuck in his errors!]
Sing F Lau
Ed, which do you believe? Kindly answer.
Do you believe that the OT saints were NOT REGENERATED, or Do you believe that the OT saints were regenerated but were not regenerated the same way NT saints are?
Simple to answer. Thanks
I will be away for few hours.
Ed Elliott
Matt, I mean no disrespect at all but if you had read through the link I provided you see I already addressed the Isac and Ishmael question.
Your other assumptions about what I believe are off based as well. The NT is the light the OT is the shadow, we should shine the light of the NT into the shadow of the old to get a proper understanding. That is what I did when explaining that OT saints were not regenerated as NT saints are today. Jesus was the first born from among the dead. If OT saints had the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead than Jesus would not have been the first born from among the dead. Something to think about.
Ed Elliott
Sing, I have already answered that question in many ways to you already. I am beginning to suspect that you are not reading my posts.
Terisa
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/re-the-new-covenant-and-the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament << wil definitely clear this all up. This is a little piece of the article 9) But now, if I understand you correctly, you think that the array of exemplary saints in Hebrews 11, with no regenerative work of God in their heart, by some natural human power overcame their enmity toward God and took such great delight in his promises that they sacrificed even their lives to remain faithful.
If this is possible, I ask again: who needs regeneration? If a man can have forgiveness of sins (Psalm 32), obedience of faith (Hebrews 11), intimate fellowship with God (Psalm 23), joy (Psalm 43:4; 51:8, 12) and peace (Psalm 119:165; 4:7, 8) before the Spirit of God ever comes to him, then his coming has lost all its significance and the idea of “regeneration” is reduced to I know not what.
My question would be how could David do the things that Paul says is impossible unless you are regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
Psa 119:127 Therefore I love your commandments above gold, above fine gold.
Psa 119:159 Consider how I love your precepts! Give me life according to your steadfast love.
Psa 119:163 I hate and abhor falsehood, but I love your law.
Did Old Testament saints have the Holy Spirit? If so, what was the significance of Pentecost?</p>
Ed Elliott
Terisa, I posted a link earlier where I pretty much covered those issues you have. If you read through all my comments you will get a better understanding of what I believe and why.
Philip NJD
@Ed When the Bible refers to Jesus being the firstborn from the dead reference Revelation 1:5 where he is the first begotten from the dead. This means he is the first of his kind from the dead, raised to never die again. Lazarus was raised but he had to die again.
2. If you say that God had one way of saving OT saints and another way of saving NT saints you deny John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Notice "so is every one that is born of the Spirit". We are all born again the same way, by the work of the Spirit of God.
3. Cornelius was born again before Peter preached to him. His praying was evidence that God had already dealt with him in his heart.
Acts 18:10 - God tells Paul "for I have much people in this city" before Paul preaches to them. How can God have much people in this city b4 the gospel is preached? Because it is not the gospel that gives man eternal life. God had much people because of electing grace.
4. Acts 13:48 - and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. You say that the Apostles were saved because they believed. This text states exactly the opposite. Belief is not the cause of salvation but the evidence of it. Belief does not cause something to be true. Also, rational people believe based on evidence. If there is no faith in a man he has no evidence in his heart to tell him this is so.
1 Cor 14:24, 25 - the unlearned that comes and hears the message has the "secrets of his heart made manifest". Notice some thing is inside him already when he hears and responds.
5. If you want to continue down the road to gospel regeneration, that no one is saved unless they hear and believe the gospel then you must eliminate the un-evangelized, and the mentally handicapped, and all infants. Are you willing to put all these groups in hell to support that doctrine? Or is there some other way of salvation for them also? If so then refer back to John 3:8 - so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Mattong
@Ed: Your understanding of death seems to be very different from others shown here. That is why I am asking. How do you define first death and also second death?
Sing F Lau
Ed -
'Sing, I have already answered that question in many ways to you already. I am beginning to suspect that you are not reading my posts.'
Every point you raised has been debunked and you suspect I haven't read your posts?
I asked the question because your first statement ""I wrote a lot on why I do not believe OT saints were not regenerated in the same way NT saints are" equivocal.
Do you believe that the OT saints were NOT REGENERATED, or Do you believe that the OT saints were regenerated but were not regenerated the same way NT saints are?
If you are not willing to answer this question, I suggest you hold your peace.
Ed Elliott
Sing, I have asked you a number of times to cease with the insults and childish insults. Every time we have a discussion you are insulting and demeaning. I am sorry but this type of behavior goes against what scripture teaches in how one does correct another. I have already asked you a number of previous times to act in a civil tone and to stop with the childish insults. You have not rebuked anything I have written. You disagree but that isn't a debunk. You also ignore the many questions I have asked you over and over again. I have answered your questions many times and I have been polite while doing it, sadly you either don't read my answers or are rude in your replies and just ignore my questions. If you are regenerate trying showing some fruit to prove it.
Ed Elliott
Matt, please explain how my understanding of spiritual death is different from yours? What did I write that would lead you to believe such a thing. Please try quoting something I wrote so I can see what you are talking about.
Sing F Lau
Ed, the only question you asked incessantly and which I didn't bother to answer, is what is promise in Heb 11:13. But that passage speaks of 'promises'.
I am on the subject that there is NO REGENERATION in the OT. You hold to that fable.
I take it that you are very rude for refusing to affirm or deny when asked to ascertain what you exactly believe... to make sure I have understood you correctly. BUT you cause a big fuss by refusing to answer simple questions! That's very rude to me.
Ed Elliott
Phillip,
1. Lazarus wasn't regenerated when he was raised from the dead, he was just brought back to physical life. You might want to read Rom 8:11 where Paul says that the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead also quickens our mortal bodies. If the OT saints had the same spirit in them as you and Sing believe than Jesus wouldn't have been the "first born" from among the dead. Isn't regeneration being born again and wasn't Jesus born again after he died? Paul says so and identifies that experience as regeneration in Titus 3.
[Jesus' resurrection from the dead is EQUATED as regeneration from the dead... and Ed is a master in Israel!]
2. It would really help if you would go and read what I wrote on Sings other link I posted. I really didn't want to come here and have to retype a few days worth of answers that I had already dealt with. I actually covered this but in brief, Abraham has in Paradise according to Jesus this was not heaven, this is where Jesus told the thief on the cross he would take him. Peter talks about Jesus going to a place to preach to the captives this place I believe was paradise. Those OT saints were saved but still not regenerated b/c they couldn't have been b/c the cross had not happened yet. In Heb 11:13 it says the OT saints died in faith not having received the promise. In Gal 3 Paul tells us what that promise was and it is the indwelling presence of Gods spirit and being made righteous, etc.
[Ed is convinced that the promised referred to is regeneration!]
3.Coenelius was not born again b/c as Paul writes in Rom 10 how can they be save unless the hear the gospel. Cornelius had not yet heard the gospel. That is why Peter came to preach to them and you will notice than the Holy Spirit fell on them all. If Cornelius was already saved why then did the Holy Spirit fall, if in fact He was already there b/c Peter arrived.
[Ed is ignorance of the fact that only those born again can believe... John 3:35.]
4. If you have evidence already why than do you need to "believe"? Faith believes what it cannot see, Heb 11:1 says faith is the evidence of things not seen. Paul said in Rom 4 that Abraham was credited with righteousness after he believed God, not b/4. Notice all the people who came to Jesus for healing, they didn't believe in healing b/c Jesus healed them, they believed b/4 they saw any evidence of their healing. By faith one receives what is truth with God even though one cannot see the evidence with their natural eyes. I suggest you go read what Jesus taught on faith and how it works. Than go and compare that with Heb 11 and see how all those folks uses faith. Abraham didn't have any evidence he could produce a child but Paul said he believed God inspite of what he saw. That is how faith works and it is why Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith.
[Believing is an evidence of the eternal life already bestowed at regeneration. Believing is not to get life. Believing is evidence of life! Those without eternal life are incapable of spiritual activity]
5. Are you a Universalist or Ultimate Reconciliation?
I believe what Paul taught and that one needs to hear the gospel and believe it to be saved. Your misunderstanding of John 3 doesn't ignore everything else Jesus also taught like he that believes will be saved and he that doesn't will be condemned. Same chapter as verse 8 I might add.
Paul also said that God would judge those outside the church so it isn't my or your job to. The bible talks about an age of accountability and babies and handicapped people are covered already by Gods mercy.
[The salvation by God's free grace, and the salvation obtained through believing are distinct and different. Ed is ignorant of this basic truth. The life you get from your parents, and the life you must get through you obedience to your parents are distinct and different!]
Ed Elliott
Sing, you baggier me to come over here and ignore my dozens of questions on the other thread that I have asked you many times and than promise me you would answer them here which you have yet to do and now you tell me if I don't answer your questions I am to hold my peace. Have I ever been that rude to you in our many discussions? Seriously the Holy Spirit would never allow me to be that rude to another brother.
Might I suggest you read these verses below and pray and ask God to help you understand what they mean. I know you believe I am in error. Thats ok with me if you think that, I was a Calvinist so I understand. But have the decency to honor Gods word and obey it in our discussions. Your snide and rude remarks and demeaning and insulting comments are a poor witness for Christ. I have taught hundreds of pastors in Vietnam and now Laos and I never come across such a believer who could be so rude to another believer. I feel sorry for the unbelievers who might want to talk about God with you if you are this hateful. I have asked you a number of times to cease with the insults and this will be my last warning or I am finished discussing Gods word with you. I came here as per your invitation. You should no how to treat a guest.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2:24-26
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Gal 6:1
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott, you're just repeating the same points that have all been interacted with... debunked... such as the silly notion that since the word 'regenerate' and 'born again' are not used in the OT, therefore, there is no such thing!
Go and check the questions asked that you have not answered.
Ok, repeat your questions that you insist I have not answered. I will answer them here.
I start this thread to answer your question, ""what was the promise that the OT saints died in faith waiting for? with respect to Heb 11:13.
Heb 11:13 says PROMISES.
I conclude that you believe than a man in his native state of sin and death and without regeneration can do all those spiritual activities, worship God, believing all those promises concerning the Messiah and His coming... work righteousness, and died in faith!
Thank you.
Ed Elliott
Sing, when I have already answered your questions a dozens times and you don't answer mine but keep insisting I answer yours over and over. It is nauseating.
Promise or promises who cares just answer? In salvation we have many promises do we not? What did Paul say Abraham saw far off in Gal 3? Paul called it the promise of the spirit. If Abraham was regenerated than he have the spirit would he not? But Paul knew that Abraham did not have the promise of the spirit.
You didn't debunk anything you just disagreed. I said the terms regeneration never refer to any OT saint and is used with NT saints being in union with Christ.
If your going to claim OT saints are regenerated shouldn't you have scripture to back it up? So far all you offered is theory and ideas based on reformed views but no solid scripture.
A man filled with demons came and worshiped Jesus in the NT. I pointed this out to you b/4 and you ignore it are you telling me that the demons and the Holy Spirit lived side by side in this man? So how did he come to
Jesus? We know God does not make his home with demons but this demon possessed man was still able to come to Jesus. I know these biblical examples contradict your theology but Gods word isn't wrong.
Rodney J
The OT saints were not regenerated, how could they of been. Jesus went to abrahams bosum and led them free, no one was in heaven until Jesus died and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat. Only then could they leave the holding place called abrahams bosum. That place does not exist any more. Another point is this where thay looking forward to thier regeneration of thier physical body. Just as we are.
I tell you what i see lately is a lot of Grace people in the other side of the ditch, thier is nothing we have to do to be pleasing and accepted by God, however there is things we have to do to get the kingdom of God working through us. And one of those things is RIghtly dividing the word of truth, including understanding covenants. And until Jesus ratified the covenant with Abraham NO ONE was righteous in thier spirit.
[This Jones does not know the distinction between regeneration, and resurrection!!!]
James
Abraham saw it and was glad, David said David said God hat made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure, for this is my salvation. So surely they saw it and died in faith waiting for it.
Rodney J
ERxactly James, they saw it but it had not been done, thier righteousness was accredited to them but thier spirit was not righteous. That is why Jesus said Abraham saw my day and rejoiced
Sing F Lau
Ed @ It is nauseating. Promise or promises who cares just answer? In salvation we have many promises do ...we not? What did Paul say Abraham saw far off in Gal 3? Paul called it the promise of the spirit. If Abraham was regenerated than he have the spirit would he not? But Paul knew that Abraham did not have the promise of the spirit.
Nauseating indeed Ed Elliott.
I already pointed out that you err by equating regeneration with having the Spirit. You see the point? I have dealt with that. The NT plainly shows that regeneration and the gift of the Spirit are distinct. You foolishly equated them!
Ed @ 'The NT is the light the OT is t...he shadow, we should shine the light of the NT into the shadow of the old to get a proper understanding. That is what I did when explaining that OT saints were not regenerated as NT saints are today."
You stated the right principle, and yet fail to learn from that simple principle.
The NT declares repeatedly that man by nature are in enmity against God, and are incapable of spiritual activities unless they are regenerated and have life. Instead of being guided by what the NT informs us, you concluded the very opposite about the OT saints... that though they were dead in trespasses and death, yet they do all those things mentioned in Heb11:13.
I did ask you whether the people in the OT were also dead in trespasses and sins... but you ignored... may be more politely, didn't register with you! That's one among many questions.
Sing F Lau
Rodney J, @
'Another point is this where thay looking forward to thier regeneration of thier physical body. Just as we are.'
What is meant by regeneration of their physical body?
Thanks.
[Rodney CAN'T EVEN distinguishes between resurrection and regeneration!]
Rodney J ·
I thes 5, 23 we are a three part being, we are saved, spirit, we are being saved Soul and we will be saved Body. In regards to the body Romans 7,24 to 25, 2 corin 5 1 to 8, Galations 6, 7 to 8. Our flesh or Body is opposed to God, it where sin is generated it has the nature of the devil "I WILL" is its language, our spirit on the other hand on regenerated, born again, righteous Ezk 36,26 is with God. Sing what i see is this, you think God acts the same with man as he did from the get go, That is the problem! Legally your points are moot as you clearly have no grip on blood covenants and fail to see where things change in terms of this. My point in case, when Adam fell, He and eve clothed themselves in fig leaves! Who clothed them in skins? let me answer GOD DID, so God took an inocent animal and shed its blood so that man could continue in fellowship with him. So blood has always been the price that needs to be paid. Why we live in this tent or body and dont get our new one until we are dead or raptured, because otherwise we would not have to live by faith.
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott
@ 'If Abraham was regenerated than he have the spirit would he not? But Paul knew that Abraham did not have the promise of the spirit. "
Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed because you equate regeneration with the promise of the Spirit. Here is the relevant passage.
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Q. What was the blessing of Abraham?
A. His experience of the blessedness of his justified state when he believed. He was already justified by God while an UNGODLY man when God effectually called him in Ur of the Chaldean.
Q. What is the promise of the Spirit?
A. The promise of the Spirit is NOT the promised Spirit as imagined. Because the promised Spirit is not received through faith. If the promised Spirit is received through faith, then you have DEMOLISHED your own fiction... because Abraham had faith, and if the promised Spirit is received through faith, then Abraham would have the promised Spirit.
Q. What is the promise of the Spirit that is received through faith?
A. The promise spoken of is the blessing of Abraham... the great blessing that Abraham received and experienced in Gen 15:1-6... through faith. That is the promise.Paul was dealing with experiential justification through faith.
And it is called the promise of the Spirit because it is a spiritual blessing administered through the working of the Holy Spirit.
Rodney J
Death means seperation from God, where the OT saints seperated? where they in heaven? NO when did they go, after Jesus was resurected. "he led the captives free, "they saw the old saints walking around" Did the OT saints have the Holy spirit NO, so where dead in thier trespasses? stop looking at points and using the understanding of words today. For example when God sai if you eat of this tree you will die! did they die as we no it? NO they where seperated from God though, that is death in its truest form, and if the OT saints had no way of washing sin away just covering it how could they not be in death?
Sing F Lau
Rodney J... start a new thread... to discuss bicycle or tricycle!
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man DOES NOT have a soul.
Man IS IS IS a living soul... when his body and spirit are in union, he is a living soul... when body and spirit are separated, physical death occurred.
In the fall of Adam, all men died spiritually, i.e. became separated from God - death in its truest form...
Therefore without regeneration, they remained in their spiritual death. And remaining in their spiritual, they would be utterly incapable to those spiritual activities we read of in the OT!
The lives of the saints we read in the OT would be impossible without regeneration... for all were in spiritual death... dead in trespasses and sins.
Sing F Lau
Rodney J @
ERxactly James, they saw it but it had not been done, thier righteousness was accredited to them but thier spirit was not righteous. That is why Jesus said Abraham saw my day and rejoiced
Righteousness accredited them but their spirit not righteous! So, the LORD's work of accrediting righteousness is quite deficient then!
What righteous Able's spirit righteous?
O whatever has happened to sanctified common sense!!!
Phillip JB
All that are following the doctrines of men are wrong, the word of God is our source for truth, it is our responsibility to flee all opinion's of man's reasoning and logic.
Sing F Lau
Phillip JB, when man's statement contradicts God's word, he is plainly wrong.
And your statement plainly contradicts God's witness about righteous Abel...
God's word declares that Abel was righteous.
Will you agree that he was righteous because righteousness was accredited to him? If righteousness was a accredited to him, Abel - his whole person was made righteous.
So, was the spirit of righteous Abel righteous?
Making platitudes like you do is a cop out!
Answering questions that expose the validity of opinions is better.
Phillip JB
No, adding to the word of God is the error and the same error anyone can see in the garden and in the account of cain and abel.
Sing F Lau
Phillip, you make statements, I make inquiries about the statement you made, and you don't have the courtesy to answer them, and you are still fussing about!
Then this is not the right place for you.
Phillip JB
I answered it put it seems as though you are not receptive to the truth as you have rejected all you where given. Abel was accounted righteous because of his act of faith Cain was not counted because of unbelief, you where given an example of spirits of men in spiritual death, did you hear it, that you might believe it?
Sing F Lau
What was my question again, if you have answered? Don't worry about Cain! What was my question?
Phillip JB
No Thank You, It is all of men's ability in whatever state he is in to choose, but he must have an ear to hear and eyes to see, thus it is in the Kingdom of God, some have hardened their heart against the word of God thus they will not see or hear, thus it is Just as Jesus taught.
Sing F Lau
And the Lord Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
And you CONTRADICT Christ's word, "It is all of men's ability in whatever state he is in to choose, but he must have an ear to hear and eyes to see, thus it is in the Kingdom of God."
You and Christ are on very different page.
Thank you for your ranting here!
Phillip JB
No One said anything about the kingdom of God you are the one avoiding the truth, Thank you.
Terisa
@Ed, Maybe something you could do is step back, consider all that has been said, and study it out. *Humbly* your assertions are not lining up with Scripture, if you have a humble Spirit in the Lord I am asking you to step back and check it out. We need the brethern to hold us accountable, for our good.
Phillip JB
Btw the way me and the anointed one are walking together with his word.
Sing F Lau
Phillip, @ 'No One said anything about the kingdom of God you are the one avoiding the truth, Thank you."
You wrote this @
"No Thank You, It is all of men's ability in whatever state he is in to choose, but he must have an ear to hear and eyes to see, thus it is in the Kingdom of God, some have hardened their heart against the word of God thus they will not see or hear, thus it is Just as Jesus taught."
You specifically mentioned the Kingdom of God... and now you said 'no one said anything about the kingdom of God..."
You forgot what you said just one breath away!!!
Kindly stop your ranting.
Mr Elliot You did well reaching out in love to speak the truth.
Sing F Lau
Mr Elliot meant well, but he most certainly speaks a great lie that the OT saints were not regenerated. Scriptures condemns such a lie.
Sinners dead in trespasses and sins without regeneration can be saints - that's fables.
Sinners dead in trespasses and sins without regeneration can die in faith - that's fiction.
Sinners dead in trespasses and sins without regeneration came embrace the promises of God - that's filthy dream.
Sinners dead in trespasses and sins without regeneration can be righteous - that's myth.
That's a fair conclusion.
Ed Elliott
Sing, I already pointed out that regeneration is about salvation. In Acts 2 they were not waiting for salvation but power to do the works of Jesus. They had already been regenerated and they were waiting for the power of the spirit to do the works of Jesus. You seem to confuse both events and besides Abraham didn't receive power to do miracles did he?
Your understanding that man is totally depraved comes from a misunderstanding of two verses that you mis-interpret to come to the conclusion that man dead in his sins cannot come to God, worship God etc. I have already showed you many times where unregenerate man did come to Jesus and even one that was demon possessed came to worship Jesus. When Paul quotes Psalm 14 about none being righteous or seeking God or does good, etc. you ignore Job who was called righteous and did good and I can easily list many other examples as well. So to take those passage literally causes you to ignore the whole counsel of God, which shows that a man dead in his sins can seek God.
Ed Elliott
Sing, in Rom 4 Paul says that Abraham was "credited" with righteousness b/c of his faith. This means simply that b/c Abraham chose to believe God that God counted his faith for righteousness. Abraham didn't have faith b/c God "credited" him with righteousness, he had faith b/4 he was righteous. Faith precedes righteousness in Abraham's life as it does in a believers life today. The scriptures are very plan about this.
Ed Elliott
Terisa, I have studied Gods word for over 30 years and I have and do humble myself b/4 God. The views I have are founded solidly on what the word of God teaches not reformed theology that you and Sing try and make Gods word fit into. I have given numerous examples from scripture that would contradict the views you both held. Example Sing believes man cannot come to God unless he is regenerated but a demon possessed man came to Jesus and we know the devil and Holy Spirit don't live together than hos did this man come to Jesus? This is just one of dozens of examples I have given to Sing that he ignores and has not answered. In the link I provided when I joined this thread, I gave many biblical reasons that OT saints were not and could not have been regenerated as believers are today. Those reasons have been ignored as well. I suggest that you go read them and allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to His truth. I was once a Calvinist myself and I began to see that reformed theology contradicts much of Gods word. You may struggle believing this and my saying it does not make it true but I would just pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to you.
Ed Elliott
Sing, what is sad is that you really don't understand how your view makes God out to be a monster. If God could regenerate man b/4 the cross than making His son go through all that torture, pain and agony was for nothing b/c justice did not need to be satisfied and the mercy seat didn't need to be sprinkled with blood etc. b/c as you claim God didn't need Jesus death burial and resurrection to inhabit man and make him righteous and holy. God could do it without the need for the cross. How sad!
Phillip JB
We know and We believe that if The lord Jesus be lifted up He will draw all men unto himself and we know that he is lifted up when you proclaim him according to his word.
Rodney J
Sing, Hebrews 4,12, the spirit and soul can be seperated, they are two distinct areas. Hence james 1, 21 to 22. now that is not the point, typical of unteachable people such as yourself, you point out a minor matter which you still do not understand and turn things around and yet the bulk of the points bought up you totally ignore and continue to push your flawed doctrine. So since this thread is just designed to push your opinion and not a true discussion because of your flawed understanding thier is no point in answering any of your questions. Because you wont understand them or you will reject them. I like what it says in Ephesians chapter 2, 7. "God has us where He wants us with all the time in this world OR NEXT" so sing i would say it is the next for you and I look forward to being one of your teachers. good bye and all the best on working out your peace
Sing F Lau
Ed @
'Sing, I already pointed out that regeneration is about salvation."
Since that's the case, no regeneration, no salvation. Therefore, according to your fable, there is no salvation in the OT since there is no regeneration in the old OT.
Ed
@ Sing, what is sad is that you really don't understand how your view makes God out to be a monster.
God regenerated OT saints BASED on the work that Christ would do. God regenerates His saints in the NY also based on the same work of Christ.
Your view makes God to be a little impotent God constrained by time!
Sing F Lau
Ed
@ Sing, what is sad is that you really don't understand how your view makes God out to be a monster. If God could regenerate man b/4 the cross than making His son go through all that torture, pain and agony was for nothing b/c justice did not need to be satisfied and the mercy seat didn't need to be sprinkled with blood etc. b/c as you claim God didn't need Jesus death burial and resurrection to inhabit man and make him righteous and holy. God could do it without the need for the cross. How sad!
This is a perverse logic at best!
God regenerates His elect, whether pre or post cross based on the redemptive work that Jesus Christ would do (OT) and has done (NT). God acted based on the covenant of redemption before the foundation of the world.
God could do without it??? - such idea is blasphemous!
Your view makes God a little impotent man constrained by your perverse logic!!!
Sing F Lau
Now rave on
. I will be away for some church planting work in a distant city.
Ed Elliott
Sing, my God isn't little and impotent he is the father of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ and the creator of all.
I agree the OT saints who were waiting in Paradise were regenerated after the cross but nor b/4. They could not have been for the numerous reasons I have stated and you ignored. Jesus was the first born from among the dead. This is talking about a spiritual birth since Jesus had become a sin offering to God. If OT saints were born again b/4 the cross than Jesus could not have been the first born! Paul says the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead quicken his mortal body. So regeneration is connected to Jesus being raised from the dead and since that happened after the OT saints died in faith they could not have received that promise. Heb 11:13.
Sing, you like to quote Rom 3 that their are none righteous etc. bit Job was called righteous and did good and Abraham was credited with righteousness. So is it possible that when you read the "whole counsel" of God you might be mis-understanding that verse since the bible says that there were people who were righteous and did good?
Ed Elliott
Sing, you claim it is perverse logic but you show an incredible ignorance about the old and new covenant. You believe God could live in unredeemed man who is still an old creation instead of the new creation we are in Christ. Why was the Veil of the temple rant in two when Jesus died on the cross? Was it because the spirit of God could know live in the hearts of men? The error in logic isn't mine, it is in you trying to make everything fit according to your theology instead of allowing the bible to be your theology.
Your stuck on the fact that sinful man cannot come to God or worship Him unless they are first born again but when I point out that a demon possessed man came to Jesus you ignore that. How could a demon possessed man be born again and both demons and the Holy Spirit live in the same man? Sorry my friend it is your logic that causes you to deny the simple truth of scripture.
Sing F Lau
Have you heard that Jesus NEEDED regeneration too!
That's by Mr Ed Elliot!
And based on this idea, there can be no regeneration of any one before Jesus was regenerated first!
He equates Jesus resurrection from the dead as regeneration from the dead.
See you all later! Wish me a safe journey, and pray for the Lord's blessings.
Sing F Lau
I have changed the setting to 'Friends' - will change it back to 'Public' when I return to prevent too many comments when I return.
Let me just say this before I go:
Ed reasoned @ "If God could regenerate man b/4 the cross than making His son go through all that torture, pain and agony "
By the same kind of il-logic, there is no justification in the OT because before Christ lived and secured righteousness, there was no righteousness to be imputed to the pre-cross saints!
And if Ed argue that there was righteousness to be imputed in the OT, THEN making Christ to render perfect obedience to all the laws, meeting the demands of His law... is STEWPIG!
Charles Page
Gospel regenerationist will do all they can to make the rich young ruler an unregenerate Jew if it means making all the Jews unregenerate. You just HAVE to do something to be regenerated!
Scott Collinge or Cornelius too Charles. Don't forget you can fear Him, work righteousness and be accepted of Him in an unregenerate state. Makes me wonder why you need to even be born again with their doctrine.
Mattong
Exo 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have *filled with the spirit of wisdom*, that *they* may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
--------------------------------
Exo 31:3 And I have *filled him with the spirit of God*, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
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These are the verses that is found showing clearly that there were OT regenerated saints. Not just one of two person, the word 'they' speak of regeneration. It has been long falsely accused in the internet, that these OT jews copied their culture from Egyptian.
This verse entirely also proof that it NOT true.
Ed Elliott
Matt, being filled with a spirit of wisdom isn't regeneration. Those verses do not talk about mans spirit being recreated they speak of God giving wisdom, knowledge not "eternal life". God enabled a donkey to speak does that mean the donkey was regenerated? Jesus was the FIRST BORN from among the dead. Paul says in Rom 8:11 that the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead has quicken our mortal bodies.
There was no OT saint who had the permanent abiding presence of the Holy Spirit IN them. The spirit of God came UPON people for the work and service of the ministry. In the OT the prophet, priest and king were had the spirit UPON them. Regeneration is just about God giving man wisdom and knowledge but about man receiving a NEW spirit a recreated spirit that is why Paul says we are NEW CREATIONS in Christ. This wasn't possible in the OT. The NT never teaches that OT saints were regenerated. We can see where Samson lost the anointing, if he had been regenerated as you all supposes he was that he couldn't have lost it.
Ed Elliott
Sing, Abraham was "credited" with righteousness he was not made righteous as believers are today. Abraham was "credited" with righteousness b/c payment for sins had not been made yet. In the OT sins were just covered up but in the NT they are taken away. Today believers are made not credited with righteousness as Abraham was b/c Jesus by his death made payment for all sin.
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott, @ Sing, Abraham was "credited" with righteousness he was not made righteous as believers are today. Abraham was "credited" with righteousness b/c payment for sins had not been made yet. In the OT sins were just covered up but in the NT they are taken away. Today believers are made not credited with righteousness as Abraham was b/c Jesus by his death made payment for all sin.
Read again and again, and see whether there was righteousness accredited to Abraham here!
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
What was counted to Abraham for righteousness?
Read here for a massive theology blunder!
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/justification-circular-letter-in-1785.html.
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott @ Abraham was "credited" with righteousness he was not made righteous as believers are today.
Here is another fable: a man is credited with righteousness but is not made righteous?
If a man is credited righteousness and is not made righteous, then what is his standing? A man is either condemned by nature or declared righteous by the righteousness imputed.
So, Abraham remained unrighteous all his life because he was in the OT?
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott, @ Today believers are made not credited with righteousness as Abraham was b/c Jesus by his death made payment for all sin.
So sinners in the NT DO NOT need justification... they do not need the righteousness of Jesus Christ to be applied to them???
Jesus paying for their sins absolved them of their just condemnation only! They still do not have righteousness! So how!!! May be NT sinners need no righteousness!
O what a mess of confusion!
Thanks Ed. There will be no end to this.
Pj Walters
It seems as though it be necessary that a distinction be made between being raised from death in trespasses and sin (being born again/spiritual regeneration) and being raised from physical death (physical regeneration/resurrection).
Grant P
Arrogance is very unbecoming.
[Promoting heresies and lies are damning. Zeal for the truth is no arrogance.]
Pj Walters
Yes, Christ was regenerated, but not from spiritual death. He was the first begotten of the dead. This means He was the first, as the brother stated earlier, to be physically raised to never die again. Regeneration is used not only in reference to the new birth, but also in reference to bodily resurrection.
Sing F Lau
Fables confuse resurrection with regeneration!
Ed insisted that Jesus Christ is the first to be regenerated... as sinners are regenerated. And based on this fiction, he said that no one before Christ was regenerated, Christ being the firstborn, the first one ever regenerated! Therefore, all the OT elect died in their native state of sin and death, i.e. remained in their unregenerated!
And Jesus needed to be regenerated because be became dead in trespasses and sins when he bore the sins of others!
And on and on and on.
Sing F Lau
Ed, @ You're stuck on the fact that sinful man cannot come to God or worship Him unless they are first born again but when I point out that a demon possessed man came to Jesus you ignore that. How could a demon possessed man be born again and both demons and the Holy Spirit live in the same man? Sorry my friend it is your logic that causes you to deny the simple truth of scripture.
Why is this so difficult with you?
In some restricted circumstances God SUFFERED His children (REGENERATED elect) to be demon possessed SO THAT the power and authority of Jesus Christ may be made manifested, to evidence who He is to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
But for your logic insists that the OT saints were not regenerated, i.e. remained in their native state of sin and death, that is really perverse logic and irrational fables!
They can remained unregenerated, yet they can be saints, and were saints waiting for the fulfillment of the glorious promises of God to them, and were saints who died in faith!!!
It is less irrational and perverse to insist that dead man can eat!
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott @ Sing, to respond to your comments that you removed. I think you totally misunderstood what I said. I never said NT sinners did not need justification as you implied I did. Also the words "account" and "credited" mean the same thing. Paul wrote that Abraham's righteousness was "credited" this means he wasn't actually made righteous but because of his faith in God, he would be treated as if he was righteous. Believers are "made" righteous today because of their faith.
Personally I think some of your misunderstanding of what I am saying is because English isn't your first language. I really don't understand why you need to be insulting. Is it possible for you to just simply agree to disagree?
Of course you didn't say it. But what you did say NECESSARILY implies that! Of course the two words mean the same thing. You said in the OT righteousness is credited. But in the NT because Jesus Christ has died, there is no longer need for righteousness to be credited. That simply means there is no justification in the NT!
Sing F Lau
Ed @
Today believers are made not credited with righteousness as Abraham was b/c Jesus by his death made payment for all sin.
There is no misunderstanding at all. There is logical conclusion from your plain statement.
Your statement above, as it stands. is a complete error. It betrays how messed up your understanding of the truth of justification... a multi-faceted jewels.
There is so much to be corrected but I don't want to waste time further, else you will be insulted further! I don't know how one can end up believing as you do on justification!!!
I don't think I am insulting. You don't like it because I call your error fables and fiction. If you don't like me calling your ideas what they are, I am not sorry.
We can agree to disagree on personal opinions and likings, not when fables are paraded as the truth of God!
Grant P
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21
a. Christ became sin. - if that's not spiritual death, what is?
b. We became righteous, we are not 'credited' with righteousness. There is a significant difference. Old Testament saints were credited, New Covenant saints are made new creations- a new spiritual species- new as in different to any previous spiritual being, made righteous. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, OT saints never had that. Note that Jesus breathed on His disciples after the resurrection- not before. Before the resurrection the disciples were Old Testament saints, after the resurrection they were born again, by the Holy Spirit, they were NT saints.
Mark Thomas
There is only one eternal Saviour and only one way of eternal salvation according to Scripture. This false dicotomy of two ways is nothing but a man made fable.
Grant P
True Mark, and it's good to know we all believe in Jesus.
Sing F Lau
Grant P
@ 'a. Christ became sin. - if that's not spiritual death, what is?
That's a great error!
Christ became sin only in the legal sense... in that the punishment of the sin was laid upon Him, and he suffered and endure the fullness of the condemnation that sin deserved.
Jesus DIDN'T die the spiritual death, and DIDN'T need to be regenerated as some pedal the blasphemous fable!!!
Grant
@ b. We became righteous - we are not 'credited' with righteousness."
Another horrible error. Righteousness is earned by Christ in His sinless life of perfect obedience to all the laws of God.
God IMPUTED that righteousness earned by Jesus Christ to all His elect when Christ died on the cross. What is imputed legally at the cross is applied personally at effectual calling.
Christ death DOES NOT make you righteous. Christ's death did bear away the eternal wrath due to your sins. That speaks of Christ's BLOOD!
Christ's life of perfect obedient to the whole law of God secured the righteousness that is acceptable to God. God CREDITED that righteousness to His people.
God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY...
And the UNGODLY embraces EVERY saint in the OT and NT!
Grant P
Sing @
How can you be legally dead and not actually dead?
That's like the undertaker asking a doctor, "Is the man dead?" and the doctor replies, "Only legally".
If Jesus only died legally then he did not pay the full price for our sin.
If Jesus didn't die spiritually then either we were not dead in sin, or he did not fully identify with us in his death.
It was our sin that Jesus died for, it was our death that he died. It was for our justification that he was justified.
(FYI- Billy Graham: 'The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions -- physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell .' Did God really forsake Jesus when He was dying on the cross?)
Ed Elliott
Sing, you say Jesus was legally dead but not dead in sin. What bible are you reading? Jesus did die spiritually he went to hell as all sinners do when they die in their sins. Even John Calvin believed Jesus died and went to hell.
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott, the more I hear from you, the more I find that your understanding of Scriptures is so perverted!
I read from the KJV.
Let me ask, did Jesus have any personal sin? Or was Jesus without sin?
You have reduced Jesus to become like a common sinner, who needed regeneration from the state of sin and death.
Jesus was NOT dead in sin like you and I were dead in sin. Jesus was without sin, so how can he be dead in sin personally? You STUPID idea that Jesus was personally dead in trespasses and sin spawns another stupid idea that Jesus needed to be regenerated! You are not stupid, your ideas.
He did suffer the full condemnation due to the sins of the His people. In taking the sin of His people upon Himself, He didn't become sinful personally - how can it be since he had no personal sin. Jesus personally remains SINLESS.Their sins was legally imputed to Him... the debt became his, and he suffered and paid for it fully.
Don't be addicted to sound byte... Get the sense.
Sing F Lau
Grant P, your question "How can you be legally dead and not actually dead?" show your confusion.
"Christ became sin only in the legal sense."
You want Jesus to become sin in the personal sense... such that he became like you and me, dead in trespasses and sins, and needed to be personally regenerated!
Christ is WITHOUT personal sin. So He can never become sinful personally even though He bear the sins of others as a substitute.
If you object to this statement "Christ became sin only in the legal sense", your question should be, "How can Christ be became sin legally, and not sin personally?"
When you can't even ask proper question, how to learn the truth?
Whoever said anything about being legally dead? What's that? You use that term, please explain what that idea is?
Christ did suffer death for the sin of His people. He actually died, suffered separation from God... and suffered the full wrath of God due to sin... ALL the time as the SINLESS SUBSTITUTE. As the SINLESS substitute he died in the place of His people. And he was raise from that death.
Ed Elliott
Sing, For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21
God made Jesus to be sin is what Paul says. This isn't my "stupid" idea but what Gods word actually says. You disagree with Gods word not me.
Why did Jesus say this, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46 Isn't spiritual death being separated from God?
The bible says that Jesus was the first born from among the dead. What type of dead people was Jesus the first born from? Were they not those dead in trespasses and sins?
You ask how can Jesus become sin when he didn't sin? How can a sinner become righteous when they did sin?
You seem to have ideas and opinions that go against what Gods word says. You are trying to twist Gods word into fitting your theology. Why not just believe what it says?
I asked you last night a question you didn't answer. Paul asked the Galatians, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
Paul says that the Galatians had received the Holy Spirit by faith. Now how is this possible according to you, one needs to already have the spirit to have faith but Paul says they had faith before they had the Holy Spirit. Looks like your views don't agree with what Paul says.
Sing F Lau
Your STUPID idea [your idea, not your... you do look smart!] is to understand that as Jesus became personally sinful, such that he became dead in trespasses and sins, and needed to be regenerated.
SENSE, not just sound byte, Ed Elliott. Sense... rightly dividing the word of truth.
The death that Jesus died was a real dead, with him experiencing all the wrath of God personally. That was not because he became sin personally - such that he needed to be regenerated like Ed needed to!
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott @ You ask how can Jesus become sin when he didn't sin? How can a sinner become righteous when they did sin?
Jesus became sin because God imputed to Him the sin of others. Imputation is legal... didn't make Jesus personally sinful, for he was without sin personally.
A sinner become righteous with the righteousness of Christ imputed to them... even though personally they are sinful and deserve condemnation.
Ed Elliott
Sing, God's word says Jesus became sin, it also says he was the first born from among the dead. You believe Jesus wasn't and played possum and didn't really die. You can call my ideas stupid all you want but it is Gods word that you disagree with.
Sing, I never said or claimed that Jesus sinned personally. I said what Gods word says and that Jesus became sin. Read what I am writing not what you think I am going to say.
Why do you keep ignoring this question?
I asked you last night a question you didn't answer. Paul asked the Galatians, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
Paul says that the Galatians had received the Holy Spirit by faith. Now how is this possible according to you, one needs to already have the spirit to have faith but Paul says they had faith before they had the Holy Spirit. Looks like your views don't agree with what Paul says.
[Ed can't differentiate between Jesus sinned personally, and Jesus become personally sinful!!! Only when a man sins personally, he becomes personally sinful. When the sins of others are credited to him, he does not become personally sinful... he become LEGALLY sinful. The crediting of sin to him is a legal transaction!]
Sing F Lau
Ed Elliott @
"I asked you last night a question you didn't answer. Paul asked the Galatians, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
You are just so obtuse. Now I am not abusive, but factually describing your thought pattern.
The regeneration that enables a man to believe and received the blessings of the Holy Spirit are different things altogether.
You being addicted to sound byte what to make the reception of the Spirit as the equivalent to regeneration!!!
That's fable fly in the face of all the teaching of Paul.
Ed Elliott
Sing, Paul was asking the Galatians how they received the Holy Spirit aka regeneration aka salvation. The Holy Spirit does the regeneration which is salvation. Paul knew that the HS was received by faith the same way Abraham was credited with righteousness by faith. If they had already had the Holy Spirit Paul would not have had to ask "how did you receive the Holy Spirit". You need to do some more study I pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth.
Sing F Lau
That where you are very mistaken...
I am tired of responding to your weird idea.
just consider you are right, and I am wrong.
So, thanks.
Grant P
No one said that Jesus sinned personally.
The Bible said he was 'made to be sin'. Ed Elliott and I are simply restating what the Bible says.
You say Jesus was only made to be sin 'legally'. Where does the Bible say that?
'For he (God the Father) hath MADE him (Jesus) TO BE SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE the righteousness of God in him.'
Jesus didn't sin personally, no-one said he did_ but the scripture does say he was made to be sin.
Paul could have said 'he was made legally sin': but he didn't. The Holy Spirit deliberately left that little word 'legally' out of there.
Zip, zero, nada- no 'legally' in there- it's not there- sorry.
It does say, he was MADE TO BE which is exactly and precisely what we are saying. But it does no say 'legally'.
I know you think I'm "STUPID' but I can't help myself- if I read it in 1/2 a dozen good translations I tend to believe it.
Sing F Lau
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
The passage should put to rest once for all...
Because ye are sons - born of God, regenerated precedes the reception of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.
Sing F Lau
Christ was made to be sin - in what sense Grant P?
- You said... Christ became sinful personally, and became personally dead in trespasses and sins such that he needed to be regenerated.
And where does the Bible ever say that - that Jesus became PERSONALLY sinful, and became dead in trespasses and sin, and had need to be regenerated like you?????
And please don't repeated the STUPID idea that Christ resurrection from the dead is the same as your regeneration from your state of sin and death because of your own sins.
- I said, Christ was made to be sin, even though He was sinless, and was treated a sinner and made to bear the consequences of the sin that was imputed to him. He was made sin because sin was imputed to him, and he bore the consequences of those sin... the full penalty of it.
Enjoy yourself. I am off for some work.
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