I put these on Facebook and the following exchanges took place:
BECOME AS NEWBORN BABES: "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Become as newborn babes and you are harmless to others, an...d able to grow wholesomely as your feed on the sincere milk of the word just like like newborn babes that feed solely on the miraculous milk that flows from their mothers breasts!
But it is mighty hard for grown up adults to BECOME as newborn babes. Nevertheless it is absolutely essential for spiritual growth and development.
A newborn babe is completely contented and satisfied with the wholesome milk from the mother's breast. He seeks and asks for no other form of nourishment!
So ought a disciple of Jesus Christ, who not only gave him life, but also the wholesome word of life to nourish that life! But that's only possible when he becomes as newborn babe!
The sincere milk means "unadulterated", not watered down or corrupted.
Sing F Lau
That's true Keith.
Nowadays, some mums need to 'express' their milk for their new born babes... whatever silly reasons that necessitate it I don't know... often a career outside home.
What need to be observed is that none of those mum would add some salt or spices or vitamins to the expressed milk before they feed it to their babes. At least they are wise to serve the expressed milk UN-TAMPERED. Of course the best is still DIRECT and LIVE FEED from the fountains - as God has intended it.
That's truly unadulterated!
Sing I don't want to assume one way or the other but if I may ask do you believe all of God's elect will become Christians before they die and no I am not referring to those outside of having a mental capacity of even understanding good and evil. I ask these things as I have heard of some things within the Primitive Baptist Church that greatly distress me.
Sing F Lau
Sides, thanks for asking, and not assuming. That's wise. The answer to your question is OBVIOUSLY 'No'. Let me put the issue in the simplest way I know how.
1. Every elect of God shall be regenerated to become children of God, all made fit for eternal glory before the end of the gospel age. Just read Romans 8:29-30 slowly and carefully.
- Does that passage include ABSOLUTELY every single elect or not? Answer this, and I will follow up with a few question for you to consider. Or begin to think of the PLAINS implications of your answer on the question you asked.
2. Of those children of God who do GET TO hear, and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, they become Christians, they are follower of Jesus Christ. These are God's children, AS WELL AS Christians.
- Some of these are become good Christians, many others are mediocre Christians, still others are disgraceful Christians.
- But they are ALL EQUALLY children of God... because their SONSHIP is by virtue of the same power and efficacy of the sovereign and gracious acts of regeneration and adoption.
- However, their discipleship as God's children varies greatly, conditioned on many factors, the quality of the ministry they enjoy, their responsiveness to the ministry to work out their own salvation, etc.
a. Of course there are God's children, and I meant the SENTIENT ONES*, who not only do not have the gospel brought to them, they are also God's children who do hear the half-baked gospel and reject them. There are also God's children, especially among the Jews in the apostolic times, who rejected the gospel brought to them by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. They were God's children who were stuck in the rut of the old covenant!
b. *The qualification about the gospel ministry being only for those with mental capacity is of course redundant, and really STUPID, because it qualifies against something that is so obviously UNTRUE, i.e. that the gospel ministry was ever intended for the non-sentient also!
Sing allow me to be a little more specific with you. Do you believe a muslim could be part of God's elect die as a muslim never having become a christian by God's grace and yet still go to heaven this is a very straight forward question?
Sing F Lau
The more specific the better!
I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides.
I live in the sea of muslims for nearly 50 years now... and I have seen and observed on several occasions the muslims that FEAR the GOD of Abraham and WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS. Blessed be the God of heaven! They fight justice for the persecuted Christian minority, they revere the name of Christ. They are familiar with the Bible, quote it in their writings... but they make no public profession of faith in Christ.
Have you not discovered the truth Peter discovered and confessed, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." It was a big surprise to Peter that one does not have to be a Jew to be accepted by God. And it is a bigger surprise to many that it is not whether you hear and believe the gospel that determines your acceptance with God. It is fearing God and working righteousness that EVIDENCE and DEMONSTRATE one's acceptance with God.
Was Cornelius accepted with God long before Peter came along? And if Peter did not come along, would the divine acceptance of Cornelius ceased, or be reversed? Does God show favoritism in ETERNAL SALVATION - GOING TO HEAVEN - to ONLY those who have the opportunity to hear, and believe the gospel?
And they fear Him and works righteousness BECAUSE God has called them out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, justified them regenerated them, adopted them, giving His Spirit to dwell in them... working graces in them... which are then MANIFESTED in the reverence of God and works of righteousness! This the the only possible explanation.
Have you not read.... there were secret believers among the Jews even in the days of Jesus Christ. They feared to profess Jesus Christ openly! They were fearful to be ostracized from the Jewish community!
In every nation (i.e. every ethnic group) any one that fears God and works righteousness HAS BEEN ACCEPTED by God. His acceptance by God explains his difference from all others... fearing of God and working the works of righteousness. Such a man can be found in any religion he was born in and grew up with - whether Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, Monkeyism, Cowism, Americanism, etc. Such are God's children and the gospel ministry has been appointed for their conversion to the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Christ Jesus! And the gospel DOES NOT reach everyone of them! That doesn't make them any less CHILDREN of God though they may remain in darkness without the gospel light to enlighten them of their eternal salvation by God's free grace.
Is my answer straight forward enough?
Sing baloney you and I believe a different Gospel then. Mormons like Muslims believe on a Different Christ although very thankful Gill and many true Baptist did not propagate this kind of nonsense.
Richard, Spurgeon a Baptist and Whitfield an Anglican whom Sing said he has read would staunchly disagree with Sing's commentary they can't all be right there is a very stark difference.
Sing F Lau
Jason, it matters very little to me whether you and I believe the same gospel or not. And it matters less whether Spurgeon or Whitefield agree with me. I am contented that I am faithful to Scriptures.
I would be interested if you engage me with the Scriptures. Who cares what so and so great theologians say and disagree with me? Since when did they become the standard of your faith??? 'Scriptures alone' is just a cheap shibboleth to so many. They would rather appeal to men, and not the word of God!
Jason, make sure you do represent me correctly. I did say a muslim who fears God and works righteousness, and not just any muslims without distinction. Or for that matter, not just a muslim, BUT ANYONE who fears God and works righteousness GIVES evidence that he is a child of God, perfectly and completely FITTED for eternal glory by God's free grace, regardless of whether he hears and believe the gospel or not.
Of course, of course, it would be VERY GOOD if such do hear and believe the gospel... because the gospel will save them from so much errors and lies, the gospel informs and instructs them the truth of their salvation that HAS ALREADY happened by God's grace.
And that is the urgency of the gospel ministry... not to get people to heaven, BUT to instruct and inform them of the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and to reproof them and correct them, and to train them in godly living... in their life here and now... as they wait for their eternal inheritance by God's free grace from beginning to end.
Sing funny how you could care less what Spurgeon and Whitfield believed but yet you claim you spent the time to read there writings do not expect me to believe that. Secondly most of your comments seem to be that of a copy and paste format of what some Primitive Baptist believe so yes let's appeal to scripture. Luke 13:3 unless you repent you shall likewise perish repent is a change of mind about the former things you held to ie. unbelief on Christ and Christ himself is the one who causes this repentance.
Sing F Lau
Ah, Jason, I could afford to care LESS with the words of such great men because I care MORE for the word of God.
Unless and until you have proof that I copy and paste from the Primitive Baptists, I take you as a false accuser and a liar for now
Sing F Lau
Jason, may I ask you a straight forward question too?
For this passage in Rev 7:
" 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen."
DID every one of the great multitude which no man could number - of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues - mentioned here, hear the gospel and become Christians while here on earth?
This is a very simple and straight forward question!
Indeed you believe a different gospel - one conditioned upon the availability of a faithful gospel ministry as well as the ability to hear and believing the gospel.
Sing what makes you think they didn't. Secondly you dismiss my commentary perhaps because you do not have an answer. I have also asked before if you witness to people you denied answering me and probably because you believe in a false gospel. Beware many will come saying did we not do thus and that and he will declare depart from me ye workers of inquiry. Beware of the wolves as they come in sheeps clothing.
Anyone see in Revelations 7:9 different religions nope not I Sing you twist scripture worse than a pretzel at least Mormons admit they have another Revelation from Christ.
Sing F Lau
I love it when you appeal to Scriptures...
That passage reads like this.
13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Did you note the word LIKEWISE... LIKEWISE... LIKEWISE. How did the Galileans perish? They perish by suffering BLOODY and CRUEL death. That's the destruction spoken of. It has nothing about gaining eternal life or perishing to hell. And it is pretty plain that only that who are ALREADY BEEN GIVEN eternal life that are able to believe.
But almost every one believes that this passage speaks about eternal salvation or eternal destruction! All blind leading the blind!
Luke 13:1-5 speaks of perishing in calamities, not about perishing in eternal hell. People perished in disasters. The Jews were warned that they would LIKEWISE perish if they repent not. Christ was warning them that they would LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE perish under the hands of the Romans in the coming destruction of Jerusalem. If they do believe, then they would take heed of Christ's warning about the impending destruction coming upon Jerusalem in 70AD!
Oh Jason, read and study the Scriptures, and learn to rightly divide the word of truth!
Sing study to show thy self approved. Even Satan used scripture to blind the masses. A Muslim is an Antichrist and since you approve of them I feel you are in an even worse circumstance being a pastor blindly leading others to a false hope.
Sing F Lau
So, just stick to the Scriptures, and it would benefit both of us. Jason, I asked you a very straight forward question on Rev 7:9, why don't you give a straight forward answer. That way, there would be profitable discussion. What is your take? Why bring in the Mormons? I want to know Jason Sides' answer to my straight forward question.
How many Muslims have you met and lived with? Have you met one who fears the God of Abraham and works righteousness as well? Have you? if you have not, I suggest you hold you peace, and cease foaming!
Sing F Lau
Jason@"Even Satan used scripture to blind the masses."
Show that I have twisted Scriptures. You can offer your interpretation of the passage under discussion. Don't just go off tangent and rave irrelevant stuff!
Brother Sing, is ritchurd saved eternally for the quality of his own faith, or is it by the 'faith of Christ' upon which any believer has such eternal hope?
So many seemingly have faith in faith.
I think, Apostle Paul said the gospel is preached from faith to faith.
Surely one having FREELY received faith is able to receive the gospel message. I think too that many will never in this lifetime have opportunity of hearing a true gospel message.
Thank you, Brother Sing for rightly dividing the word of God which is for my edification!
I have no peace with those who claim Christ is not Co equal to God as do Muslims and since you agree with them I have no peace with you. Rev 7: 9 is clear all kinds of people will be saved some were saved then past tense some being saved present and others not even alive yet will be saved and rejoice unto Christ through out the entire world this passage has nothing to do with saying all kinds of religions teach and proclaim the same Christ.
Sing F Lau
Yes, the gospel is preached by one who has the Spirit of God dwelling in him working the grace of faith in him, to another one who has the same Spirit of God indwelling in him, working the same grace of faith.
The act of believing is the manifestation of the grace of faith worked in the heart by the indwelling Spirit... the evidence of the possession of eternal life, given by God's free and sovereign grace.
I am a child of free and sovereign grace...
Sing F Lau
Jason, I do ACCEPT any man a child of God who fears the God of Abraham and works righteousness... BECAUSE God Himself has accepted them. I do endeavor to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to them... and they may not openly profess faith in Jesus Christ for the simple reason of persecutions.
Have you not read the similar situation among SOME Jews - "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes." Ro 11:28.
And some Jews believed on Christ, all those who were of the elect of God. Those who did not before they died were not chosen of God. Sing you can believe your righteousness will save you till you're blue in the face but God calls it a filthy rag. How dare you think you could be saved by a filthy menstral rag.
Sing F Lau
Sides@ "Rev 7: 9 is clear all kinds of people will be saved some were saved then past tense some being saved present and others not even alive yet will be saved and rejoice unto Christ through out the entire world this passage has nothing to do with saying all kinds of religions teach and proclaim the same Christ."
Jason, please stop raving about things irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying that the passage has anything to do with with saying all kinds of religions teach and proclaim the same Christ. Who has said that Islam proclaims the same Christ of the Bible? That's just your imagination, an indication that you are incapable of a proper discussion.
In relation to Rev 7:9, do you know that there have been nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues who had perished/disappeared from the face of the earth WITHOUT the gospel message ever reaching them? How then did individuals from those ALL those nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues found in heaven - as indicated in the passage?
And do you know some of those tribes mentioned in the Scriptures? Here are some from Genesis... Were any among them found in heaven? If yes, how? Because they heard and believed the gospel? Please give a reasoned answer. Please NO RAVING nor foaming!
Read this little section of the book 'Pruning Seven Deformed Branches: 'Redeemed out of Every Tribe..."
Sing, wrong again. You claimed Muslims along with others who deny Christ can and will be saved so my statement is very relevant. Until you are willing to stop twisting the scriptures I have nothing more to say to you.
Sing F Lau
Jason, when did I ever say that my righteousness will save me? Thou shalt not bear false witness - 9th commandment.
I did say that a man who fears God and works righteousness DOES SO because he is already a child of God by sovereign and free grace... without the hearing of the gospel. Hearing and believing the gospel is ONE evidence of having eternal life. Fearing God and working righteousness are also evidences of having eternal life.
I expect this basic rules in communication: if you cannot represent the view of your opponent fairly you have forfeited you right to speak! You resort to raving and ranting!
You do not work righteousness nor believe in God if you deny Christ or teach a false Christ hence your statement is a false assumption that Muslims do.
Sing F Lau
Islam denounces Christ as the Son of God, and many other fundamental truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. BUT I have met men who are outwardly muslims who don't!
So, you need to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims... just as you need to make a distinction between Christianity and Christians. I have nothing good to say about the religion called Islam. I do have some good words for some muslims who fear the God of Abraham and work righteousness. I have everything good to say about Christianity, but no good words for a vast number of Americans who claim themselves Christians.
I do believe some muslims (i.e. those who fear the God of Abraham and works righteousness) will be in heaven, while VERY many so called Christians in the west (who fear not God nor work righteousness) will find themselves in eternal hell!
Thankful that you have decided to hold your peace. Your raving and foaming betray a woolly and confused mind.
Sing F Lau
Jason@"You do not work righteousness nor believe in God if you deny Christ or teach a false Christ hence your statement is a false assumption that Muslims do."
This is obviously a STUPID statement. Cornelius was ALREADY working righteousness WHILE he has no knowledge of Jesus Christ. Cornelius was ALREADY believing in God when he has no knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Whoever is denying Christ, or making false assumption about Muslims? You are the one with obtuse mind, incapable of representing what I said correctly.
What I have said concerns some 'muslims' who DO fear the God of Abraham and works righteousness. And you FOOLISHLY and PERVERSELY equate my words as describing ALL adherents of Islam!
Your question was, "Do you believe a muslim could be part of God's elect die as a muslim never having become a christian by God's grace and yet still go to heaven this is a very straight forward question?"
I said a muslim, or whatever communal faith he was born into, who FEARS the God of Abraham AND works righteousness IS a child of God, and may die as 'muslim' never converted to Christianity through the gospel ministry, and STILL go to heaven.
I did give a straight answer, but you in your perverseness, twisted it out of context.
Glad that you have decided to hold your peace. Your raving and foaming betray a woolly and confused mind.